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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 4
Location: Des Moines
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Ok... I know the topic always comes up that we were promised professional refs. And I am fine with with guys stepping in to ref the games and I am glad they do because we all know what would happen if we were all left to call our own penalties. That would get ugly.
But here is where my problem is. Call it both ways. I know everyone hates the Tomatoes and I am ok with that. No one wants to lose to us, not a big deal. So don't just penalize us when we are playing the same game as the other team.
Here is what really angered me about last weekend. I could care less that we spent time in the box and I realize that penalties have to be giving to keep the game in check. But sometimes you have to ask yourself... why?
If there is a penalty, raise your arm. If you hesitate just the slightest or have to think was that a penalty or not... then it is already too last to call it. You can not raise your arm to call a penalty 10 seconds later. Or even worse, call it once the other team starts yelling it. Call it when you see it, not when the teams bench yells it.
And after this... I will end this post. Will someone please explain to me.... Why Kid got a penalty why he was on the ice in front of the net? As we questioned the call directly after it happened. The referee in question said "he was laying on the ice and froze the puck." Which would be a valid penalty if he had committed one. But don't have a chip on your shoulder and try to get smart and yell to our bench "that is USA Hockey rules! Would you like to read them?" When you yourself have not. (Because if you challenge people, they may just take you up on your offer.) I did just that.
" Rule 612. Falling on Puck
1. A minor penalty shall be imposed on a player other than the goalkeeper who deliberately falls on or gathers the puck into his body.
(Note) ANY PLAYER WHOE DROPS TO HIS KNEES TO BLOCK A SHOT SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED IF THE PUCK IS SHOT UNDERHIM OR BECOMES LODGED IN HIS CLOTHING OR EQUIPMENT, BUT ANY USE OF THE AHNDS TO MAKE THE PUCK UNPLAYABLE SHOULD BE PENALIZED PROMPTLY. "
I am glad we have now cleared up the Falling on Puck rule. Thanks!
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/12/2009
Posts: 3
Location: huxley
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I wasn't there, I didn't see the game. But I have officiated in this league, and know its tough. Everyone seems to have some premise that the refs in our league our pros. The reality is, many of the officials seemed to have started just to have someone there to drop the puck and call the big stuff. I'm not sure what they get paid now, if at all, but it used to be pretty minimal. Certainly not worth it for all the crap you have to put up with. Usually its one official, 2 tops, so right off the bat, refs are shorthanded. There are a ton of things to be looking out for. If its just one ref out there, they are worrying about dropping the puck, faceoff locations, offsides/icing, calling goals, essentially linesman duties, plus running the clock/scoreboard, running the box, and calling penalties. It can end up being, one person does the jobs of about 5 people.
With the one ref system, it gets to be difficult to be in good position to make calls. You don't want to get too deep into the zone, because then its hard to call offsides. You don't want to be too close to the blue line, because its hard to call goals. If you are in the middle, its the best you can do, but really you aren't in the best position to make either call.
Again, i wasn't there, I don't know who was reffing, I don't know any of the facts. But when I officiated, I didn'tt know of any officials in this league who seemed to favor calls in favor of one team vs. another. But sometimes it can seem that way though. Its one of the difficulties of being an official. In your head, you say, call it like you seem em. But if all you see is Team A infractions, and thats all you call, you know you will start catching an earful from team A. But if you start to try to even things up, you start getting yourself in trouble. You start making marginal calls against team B, and then team B is complaining that we called them for little things, when we aren't doing that to team A. Sometimes its just that you see things from team A that you don't from team B.
You are right in your statement about not calling it 10 seconds later. Officials need to call it right away. And a team shouldn't be able to talk its way into giving the team another penalty.
I guess I'm not understanding the Rule in question. Did the player fall on the puck or not? Or was he just laying on the ground and the puck got shot under him? If its that the puck was shot under him, could it be that the official was not fully able to see that and called it as if he saw the player fall on the puck?
Sometimes is simply comes down to the fact that we are human. I've made more than my fair share of mistakes while officiating.
If you've never reffed a game, I'd suggest giving it a try. You see the game from a different light when you officiate. It was a real eye opener for me when I did it the first time.
I think the long and short of it is, you were promised sanctioned refs, and the rink didn't deliver on that. So you get what you get. I've played in enough games where we've either called our own calls and dropped our own pucks to know having a ref is a nice luxury, even if you don't always agree with the calls.
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/13/2008
Posts: 53
Location: driving Iowa county roads
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I wasn't there either and am supposed to be listening to this conference call so I'm not going to look it up, but it sounds like he was in the crease. I think there's a different rule about only the goalie being able to freeze the puck in the crease.
I agree 100% that everyone who plays should have the opportunity to ref. It's a lot tougher than it looks. The biggest complaint I have on the reffing is refs being out of position to make the call. Granted, it's impossible if reffing by yourself to be in position to make the calls all the time, but with 2, I've seen way too many missed calls (penalties, play blown dead while puck was still loose, or goalie getting hacked on when he had puck frozen, etc.)because both refs were still at the blue line instead of one of them skating a little harder to get deep into the zone. There's no excuse for that with 2 refs. Also have been frustrated by refs being right up against the boards, usaully lazily leaning on them, and stopping the puck when they should have been 3 feet off the boards so the puck and players can get around them. All of the refs have played enough that they should be able to anticipate and get out of the way of the play. I have also seen calls "made from the bench" where the ref raised his hand after the bench complained. That's frustrating.
From my minimal experience reffing, I know when I made mistakes I was as frustrated with myself as anyone playing was frustrated with me. I may be wrong, but I try to assume that when I'm playing the refs do want to get it right. Sometimes it's difficult to convince myself of that, but I try.
It's a short time livin' and a long time in the ground.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/12/2009
Posts: 3
Location: huxley
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Sometimes problems with positioning are just as bad with a 2 refs as 1. I've seen several refs cover blue line to blue line while the second official covers goal line to goal line. You talk to them at intermission about it, and within 5 minutes they are back to blue to blue. It gets to be tiring on the ref covering goal to goal because they are skating back and forth 180' while the other ref is covering only 60'. Either that, or BOTH refs are covering blue to blue, which makes the pair only slightly more effective than a single official.
Another thing to consider when disagreeing with calls is the fact that we use running clocks. Officials do not have the time to stop and explain their calls to captains until intermission. Even then, officials still need to collect stats, update the clock...So there isn't always time to clarify calls.
I know I've been made about a couple of calls against me because I KNEW they were incorrect. But when getting it clarified from the ref, I understood WHY they made the call they did. Its important to remember that refs can't guage your intentions, only your actions. So if you didn't mean to trip someone, but they stepped on your stickblade and fell, try to understand where a ref might see that as hooking/tripping.
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Rank: Administration
Joined: 4/22/2008
Posts: 83
Location: In the crease
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I know that refs have tough jobs as I have done a little reffing in the past and didn't realize the demands of it. However, they are getting paid and are expected to be fair. A few main issues stand out to me.
1) A couple of weeks ago, there was a stick that knocked the helmet off a player. From the bench on the opposite end of the ice, we could see and HEAR the stick hit the helmet and get knocked off. About 10 seconds later after the bench yelling, the refs (there were three refs on the ice that game) finally called it. However, they were giving the player a hard time because he didn't have a chin strap and saying that was the problem. As another ref escorted the offending player to the box, he was APOLOGIZING to the player acting like it wasn't his fault. His stick hit another player's helmet and they are acting like it was our player's fault.
2) Referees trying too hard to call the obscure rules and not paying enough attention to the main ones. There are only a couple of refs that do this, but it really gets to players. I remember hearing about an "intentional offsides" rule from a whle back or the one about dropping in the crease. They may be rules and get called a few times a year in professional hockey games, however, we are a REC league. There is no need to go into the details of a hand-pass or something like that. Last time I checked, the US Hockey Rules didn't have anything about a hat trick rule or stuff like that. Fudging of the rules already happens anyway. Instead of watching for the obscure rules, they would be better off keeping the game in control by watching for cheap shots and offsides.
3) Though it is getting better, several refs want to be too equal and call 2 people when there is a penalty. Several times, I have seen a player get hooked (both for and against my team) and the hooked player fell down on the puck. Both players get called, one for hooking and the other for delay of game or something like that. They try to keep both teams happy by doing that and act too impartial.
4) I understand that there aren't a overabundance of referees for our level of hockey. However, when there are refs on the ice for a league game and they are on one of the other teams in the league, there is going to be some bias, whether they admit it or not. They may not even mean to, but it happens. We should have outside referees that are not in the leagues playing so they have no ties to any of the teams. Some refs seem to get a chip on their shoulders against a team and bad calls are made. A couple of seasons ago, there was a ref that had an extreme bias against our team. He called several "penalties" against our team that were out of thin air. The other ref and even the players on the other team were confused on what was going on. This ref just wanted to feel big and bad I think and about half the team ended up walking off the ice because of it. Nothing nearly this bad has happened since, but it shows that some people don't know where to draw the line.
Again, I am not saying all the refs are bad or they all make bad calls. They are human and miss calls from time to time. I am simply saying that since they are getting paid, they should have proper training to make the calls needed to control a game at this level.
QCI - Goalie #42
Killer Tomatoes - Mid-season Aquisition
Chops League - Skater
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 4/22/2008
Posts: 12
Location: Grimes
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THansenite wrote: "We should have outside referees that are not in the leagues playing so they have no ties to any of the teams." I guess I will chime in here too. I completely agree that the refs should not be playing on teams in the league. At least if they are, ref on the night they don't play (Sun vs Weds). I also must completely agree, I WOULD NEVER WANT TO REF. It is a tough job and I'm glad some have stepped up to help. However, call the simple rules. Ignore the complicated rules unless they are getting out of hand. Finally, lets stop the "chippyness" out on the ice. It's C league and we all have jobs to go to. My 2 cents...
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 3
Location: Des Moines
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Has anyone else been given this "charging" penalty or is it just me? I am going to keep skating and if someone gets in my way on purpose they'll get run over if I can't get around them. I am not going to just give the puck away or stop in my tracks. It's a stupid penalty in my opinion.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 3/30/2009
Posts: 1
Location: Des Moines, IA
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THANK YOU KILLER TOMATO!!! Can we take a copy of Rule 612. Falling on Puck and hand it to the refs prior to the game so they understand or would that just piss them off more? I was called last night for the exact same penalty. I couldn't get up because there were sticks trying to get the puck out from under me, that I was not trying to cover, which then lead me to the penalty box for Delay of Game. Don't they realize that if I was reallly covering the puck then nobody would have been hitting me with their stick trying to get the puck they couldn't see? For the most part I will admit to most of the penaties that I get. But I will argue when I don't agree with them, like last night. I will say that most of the refs do call penalties based on the players ability so good for them.
I don't know about ref's on Wednesday nights but I will point fingers at one on Sunday nights that thinks he knows everything but his head is too far up his ... to be fair to everyone. He has it out for specific players and will call penalties on them that don't make sense (See Derek). This is not fair. It's no fun when you have to deal with that.
Someone should not ref on a night they play. If they do then at some point the ref who is playing for their team is going to get leveled because of a crappy call that pissed someone off from the last game. I am not threatening, I can just see the frustration building on many players who continuously have to deal with this. They don't think it's fun to come play anymore, and that really suck.
Will the new management listed to these concerns and help out, I don't know, I haven't asked. But I do think it would be a valid request. And yes, I know it would be a nightmare to get people who aren't playing to show up on the other nights and ref but there are ref's in Des Moines that don't have any affiliation with teams that will come. They do charge more per game then what MISF is paying but would it make everyone happier playing?
Finally, yes I have done some reffing in the past. I'm not bitching about something I have never done before. I know it's not fantastic but if you are fair and you are knowlegable about the rules, it will make the game more fun for everyone. If players are having fun, then they are going to be easier on the ref's, which will make the penalties easier to take, even if the player doesn't agree with the call. We have see it before. When the ref's are talking to the players before, during, and after the game, everything goes much smoother.
Now I will go back to work....
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 3
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THansenite wrote:1) A couple of weeks ago, there was a stick that knocked the helmet off a player. From the bench on the opposite end of the ice, we could see and HEAR the stick hit the helmet and get knocked off. About 10 seconds later after the bench yelling, the refs (there were three refs on the ice that game) finally called it. However, they were giving the player a hard time because he didn't have a chin strap and saying that was the problem. As another ref escorted the offending player to the box, he was APOLOGIZING to the player acting like it wasn't his fault. His stick hit another player's helmet and they are acting like it was our player's fault. A) you don't know what he was talking to me about, he wasn't apologizing, he was saying that he had to call it., yet sympathized with me because he knew that it was bs that he didnt have a chin strap, that, and hes my friend, so we were talking. B) it was your players fault, atleast, he didn't help the situation, for not wearing a chin strap, which is against USA hockey rules. Really, he shouldn't be playing b/c of no chin-strap. My stick hit the top of the helmet, didn't hit face, and popped off because he didnt have a chin strap. Anyways, I dont see how you can get upset enough to write about that. Refs do the best they can, even though a couple do a better job and worse job that others.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 4
Location: Des Moines
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captain clutch wrote:
B) it was your players fault, atleast, he didn't help the situation, for not wearing a chin strap, which is against USA hockey rules. Really, he shouldn't be playing b/c of no chin-strap. My stick hit the top of the helmet, didn't hit face, and popped off because he didnt have a chin strap. Anyways, I dont see how you can get upset enough to write about that.
In TH's defence... Explain how it is our players fault? Regardless of a chin strap, open face, a visor, or a cage... a stick above the cross bar is a high stick. If your stick was on the ice... we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/13/2008
Posts: 53
Location: driving Iowa county roads
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Well said, KT.
It's a short time livin' and a long time in the ground.
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Rank: Administration
Joined: 4/22/2008
Posts: 83
Location: In the crease
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Why should the ref be sympathizing about calling a legitimate penalty? As KT said, chinstrap or not, your stick still made contact with his helmet which is a high sticking call. The helmet doesn't have to fall off to make it a penalty. I can't believe people are going on and on about not having a chin strap when it is a legitimate penalty. Besides, if we are sticking to USA hockey rules, where does it say anything about a hat trick rule?
QCI - Goalie #42
Killer Tomatoes - Mid-season Aquisition
Chops League - Skater
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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The only thing I will say about the helmet is that it should not be allowed because it is a safety/liability issue. Getting a new chin strap is not that hard or expensive. But, if that is an issue, then the player should not have been allowed to play at all with the helmet.
From the description, it sound like a legit penalty that was mostly called b/c the player had faulty equipment. Either way, the penalty stands and the ref needs to pay more attention.
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Administration
Joined: 4/22/2008
Posts: 83
Location: In the crease
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NotGniGde wrote:Either way, the penalty stands and the ref needs to pay more attention. Very true, especially since there were 3 referees on the ice that game.
QCI - Goalie #42
Killer Tomatoes - Mid-season Aquisition
Chops League - Skater
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 3
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Yes, I high sticked him. However, it is a HUGE liability issue for himself and the rink. It is partly his fault (I am not saying it is completely, read what I wrote) because of no strap. ANY league in NA would not allow him to play due to saftey liability/rules issues. I dont get why he still can use that helmet.... Anyways, the real problem with the refs.... I get slashed from behind on my back, Irwins guy gets 5 minutes for slash and intent to injure game misconduct. This is where the penalties should end, and it was the right call. He is calling me an asshole, right after the incident happened (1 second) I called him a dickweed. I get 2 minutes for unsportsmanlike conduct (swearing) W. T. F. I don't see how I can get a penalty for swearing while he does the same thing.... THAT, and, most of the people would have gone after him or do some stupid stuff, and at minimum, call him a motherf325er and give him the bird a couple times. This is grounds for unsportsmanlike conduct. But dickweed? RIGHT AFTER IT HAPPENED? Seriously is weak. Reffing is good for some of them, there are a couple that should never ref a game again (biasness & unknowningness of rules). Quote:The only thing I will say about the helmet is that it should not be allowed because it is a safety/liability issue. Getting a new chin strap is not that hard or expensive. But, if that is an issue, then the player should not have been allowed to play at all with the helmet.
From the description, it sound like a legit penalty that was mostly called b/c the player had faulty equipment. 100% agree. For the rink's sake, he shouldnt be able to wear that helmet. On Slapshot Derek gets high sticked 2-3 times a game, and it gets called 10% of the time. Reason why it rarely gets called? He has a chin strap on that doesn't force his helmet off him when he gets high sticked. If he wasn't wearing a chin strap it would get called alot more often, because it would be a lot more obvious to the refs.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 6/5/2009
Posts: 3
Location: SOMEWHERE HERE!
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Just found this thread: the chin strap was discussed with management(no help) second what makes anyone think that the ref is ALWAYS looking right at you. There are 11 other guys out there on the ice moving in many different directions. Collision are going to happen! Most obviously are not on purpose, some are and most get called. Management established the "cut off" rule since it is a non checking league, usually checking someone off the puck is okay, but in the "Metro Ice Arena world" management has deemed is not so. If you were looking to management for changes "we" wanted don't hold your breath, lots of lip service. Why do you see several teams now playing at the bucs arena?
A lot of this situational cow crap can be put to rest with an association of our own, where we have the rules set, captains of teams, commissioner/president of the association, and infringment and settlements like Mr Bafia of the previous league had established. What we have right now is a " I am the king" kind of mentality managing the league we pay to play in. With an association we get some of that back with a governing body of people, officals who are familiar with our type of play and rules that apply. Officals would be directed by the head offical and rules infractions punishments (related to extreme situations) would be imposed and voted on by captains of teams. Our lead is suppose to be fun with good hard game play. Don't see that much this last season.
We should be following common sense rules when it comes to safety, USA hockey or not, Chin straps should be in place just like the nutt cup. I would go on to state that visors or cages should be required as well. Maybe in the future. We want the game to safe and responsible as possible don't we?
Last thing, there are some guys that can ref and other that can't, but without your input, how is anyone to know? But with a management system that doesn't listen how will it change? We need our own association so we can govern and regulate our play standards.
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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MORE COMMON SENSE wrote:Just found this thread: the chin strap was discussed with management(no help) second what makes anyone think that the ref is ALWAYS looking right at you. There are 11 other guys out there on the ice moving in many different directions. Collision are going to happen! Most obviously are not on purpose, some are and most get called. Management established the "cut off" rule since it is a non checking league, usually checking someone off the puck is okay, but in the "Metro Ice Arena world" management has deemed is not so. If you were looking to management for changes "we" wanted don't hold your breath, lots of lip service. Why do you see several teams now playing at the bucs arena?
A lot of this situational cow crap can be put to rest with an association of our own, where we have the rules set, captains of teams, commissioner/president of the association, and infringment and settlements like Mr Bafia of the previous league had established. What we have right now is a " I am the king" kind of mentality managing the league we pay to play in. With an association we get some of that back with a governing body of people, officals who are familiar with our type of play and rules that apply. Officals would be directed by the head offical and rules infractions punishments (related to extreme situations) would be imposed and voted on by captains of teams. Our lead is suppose to be fun with good hard game play. Don't see that much this last season.
We should be following common sense rules when it comes to safety, USA hockey or not, Chin straps should be in place just like the nutt cup. I would go on to state that visors or cages should be required as well. Maybe in the future. We want the game to safe and responsible as possible don't we?
Last thing, there are some guys that can ref and other that can't, but without your input, how is anyone to know? But with a management system that doesn't listen how will it change? We need our own association so we can govern and regulate our play standards. Good points. The Midwest High School Hockey League actually runs as this type of association. From my understanding, the metro high school league does too. I know the Nebraska HS lacrosse league (which Valley plays in) works this way. I would imagine most amateur sports leagues do. It is the only logical way. After talking to friends in other cities, it certainly seems odd that the Facility manage de jour seems so set on running the adult league. All public rinks that I'm familiar with in Dallas, Houston, Denver, etc. have player/association run leagues. They rent ice time as a group and it is more or less set up the way Joe used to run things. This allows the rink manager to focus on managing the rink (what a concept!) and allows the league to police itself & address issues. I don't understand why our many managers think they need to have their hand in the adult hockey league pot. Even their fee structure is asinine. Charging less per person if a whole team is registered and more if you need to split the payment? Seriously? For the cost, the ice is in terrible shape by the time hockey starts. Scheduling figure/public skating to end literally 5 minutes before hockey starts doesn't given enough time for a good scrape to get the ice ready for hockey. I know that is off the officials, but it is all related... An association would have more control over getting officials scheduled and committed, I think. Surely there is a way to work it out...
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 10/8/2009
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Location: davie,fl
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just been reading what happened. remember,you have to have your stick under control. high sticking is stick above your shoulder, not your opponents, not the goal cross bar ( at least under usa hockey rules.). Calling a penalty ten seconds later surely does not sell the call. A puck shot into your clothing is no penalty unless you make a movement to further cover it than it becomes a delay of game. And guys, a judgemental call is hard to argue against. Good refs have good judgement. Last but not least, don,t let a fer officiate unless he is certified. Of course,the players must also register with usa hockey. It,s for your own protection.. I,ll keep in touch.
I used to play in the adult league in the seventies in Des Moines when the team was semi pro in the International league.
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