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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/29/2008
Posts: 9
Location: WDM, IA
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This being my first run at hockey since last winter/spring season, I must say this was quite a culture shock. I've been out of the game for 4 months, but I still know the league and, for the most part, those who play in it. I know of the newest rules (icing, hat trick rule, etc.), and although USA Hockey rules were used for the tournament, I feel the most basic of concepts for a tournament were not kept in check. Say what you will, the fact that some teams were allowed to substitute from other teams completely negates the purpose of the tournament. In my mind (and I'm not alone in this sentiment), it was meant to allow bragging rights for the team that won the championship. Granted, it was oversight on the organizers part to notify the teams entered of the level of play. But bringing in "substitutions" from teams that obviously have a much higher level of skill to play for them in what should be a fun tournament? That seems a bit off the point of a tournament designed for fun.
I know this comment will draw some fire from both sides, but I was curious of everyone's thoughts.
#37 Coke/YDD (on hiatus)
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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It's par for the course at the facility lately...
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/29/2008
Posts: 9
Location: WDM, IA
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This type of thing shouldn't even be in question, regardless of intent. Situations such as these diminish players' trust in the league and the rink. I understand it's difficult to manage and is very time consuming, but that's why it requires adequate attention, which is obviously not being given.
Joe, you need to take over again. :)
#37 Coke/YDD (on hiatus)
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/13/2008
Posts: 53
Location: driving Iowa county roads
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So what did happen? I'm sure I'll hear about it tomorrow night, but I'm curious now. If it makes you feel better, my son's team went 0-4 over the weekend, with their closest game being I think 2-6. The killer was getting him on the ice by 7:15 Sunday morning, then seeing him let the first 2 shots go in before he made his first save about 2 minutes into the game. After 4 1/2 minutes his team finally got it across the blue line and into the other zone. They stopped adding on the scoreboard after it was 9-0. I think he gave up about 15 goals on 31 shots (I think they may have quit adding the shots on the scoreboard also). But the weather was beautiful in Duluth and we had a great trip, except for the hockey.
It's a short time livin' and a long time in the ground.
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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Doc wrote: Joe, you need to take over again. :) Yes he does! Come on, Joe! Find a way to run an adult league. Maybe a C/D combo league with a draft/evaluation system to make even teams and more of them to play against...
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/29/2008
Posts: 9
Location: WDM, IA
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Teal wrote:So what did happen? Quick answer? Poor communication that lead to a lot of hard feelings. Two competitive league teams (Cedar Rapids and Peoria, IL) entered the tournament, one of which (Peoria) was made up of a majority of players from Bradley college. The 14-0 win against Team Coke/YDD pretty much explains how even that game was. Our last game, against B&B, was supposed to be a relatively even game. However, they somehow managed to bring in two of the Peoria guys to "even up" the ranks. We lost (what a shock), as we were always running an uphill battle. We'd score a goal, and they would turn around and score two. I like to think we have a pretty good team (and one of the only ones in the tournament who kept their original roster), but it sure didn't show in the tournament. We played our hearts out and definitely put up a fight, but it was mice and men. NotGniGde wrote:Maybe a C/D combo league with a draft/evaluation system to make even teams and more of them to play against... Good call on the evaluation, but I think a draft more or less upsets the general nostalgia of the league. I've played in the C and D leagues for a 4 seasons and loved the fact that a team could be created that had a good rapport. That's what makes a team a team. You'll always have a well-oiled machine of a team that seemingly dominates, but that's where someone like Joe would come in and make sure the top dogs move up or get spread out among other teams. Until this season, that has been a natural flow, but apparently the lack of due diligence is allowing a lot of lopsided situations (such as last weekend).
#37 Coke/YDD (on hiatus)
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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I will agree that it is nice to form your own team as much as possible. One thing that we have discussed is forming a nucleus of players and then adding in new players to create a nice mix of talent and experience. This allows lets people get to know new players and creates a more sportsman-like atmosphere as people from various teams have played together in the past. I do like the idea of forming full teams, but when new players are involved, things get messy.
At any rate, we need someone who cares about the league, teams, and players like Joe did. The rink cares about our money and it is very obvious. Now that they have our money and the season is half over, things are degrading rapidly. Promises are broken and games are canceled for camps and tournaments. Then things like the tournament happen. No subs means no subs. Forget about "evening up" Coke and B&B (they think they can hang in C anyway), it's a tournament with different divisions. I am hoping that Coke participated in the advanced division since the Bradley club team participated. Which means that B&B should have been able to compete as is.
While subs were way out of hand last season, I don't remember any of that crap happening during Joe's tournaments...
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/29/2008
Posts: 9
Location: WDM, IA
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I would agree with you about new players joining established teams. Having an example by which to lead provides a mutually beneficial situation to everyone in the league. Fair teams and the having new players learning how to work in an established team environment.
I know Joe was overwhelmed with all the duties he took on, but what was the reason for the rink owner taking over everything?
#37 Coke/YDD (on hiatus)
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 5/14/2008
Posts: 3
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You guys make some interesting points, but the B&B team that signed up for the tournament was never meant to be the same B&B team that plays D League. We used the B&B jerseys, but almost all of our players were Hockey dads that play anywhere from A to D league. We had 6 people that play D league including the goalie (who has played for less than 1 year).
The two "extras" that were brought in weren't Peoria players, they were actually kids that used to play for the DM Oak Leafs, so they are local. We didn't know until about a day ahead of time who we would have so we submitted a roster of 6 people, which was accepted by MISF but obviously not our full roster. Then when we brought in the remainder of the people we were DQ'd from our win vs. CR and told to submit a new roster, which we did.
Anyway, the communication from the rink was terrible, since it was never relayed to the teams that the Competetive and Rec divisions had been combined. I am sure that CR and Peoria weren't too happy to be playing against "C" and "D" league teams. I know that CR wasn't too happy about beating B&B 10-2, then turning around and losing 8-6 when the rosters were evened up.
All in all it was just typical of the Facility and the way that they are run. I understand the frustration of Coke, but don't be spreading the rumor that B&B took players from another team just to win.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/14/2008
Posts: 7
Location: Des Moines
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My biggest issue was scheduling. I played on the 11to7 team. We were scheduled to play Friday at 10:00pm, Saturday at 10:30am, Saturday at 4:30pm and Sunday was up in the air given what seed we were.
Our Friday game started on time at 10:00, only to find we played Peoria and lost 10-0. I think we had the puck in our zone 10 times and about 8 of those were because of icing.
Saturday was completely screwed up. Our 10:30am game got pushed back to 12:00, which we played Alien Hockey, after that game we found out our 4:30 game was actually a 2:00 game, starting 20 minutes after our 1st game ended… Guess who we played, Alien Hockey again! After this game we found we were supposed to play a 6:30 game that evening against Peoria. 4 games against 2 teams, only 1 of which was correct on the schedule. We were told this was going to be our last game of the tournament. After the Peoria game, which I didn’t want to play in. (I understand playing against a better team makes you a better player however I know how to skate circles just fine) I got a message that we now had a 10:30 Sunday morning game! About an hour after the original message I received a second text message stating our game was now changed to a 1:30 in the afternoon game.
I arrived the next day just after noon to find some of my team was never given the word by Kristina, who said she would let everyone know the correct time, and they had been sitting in the stands since 10:00 that morning. I know I never heard a word from the arena on the time, I was lucky one of my teammates had my number to not only notify me of the extra game in our schedule but notify me of the time change.
From my experience I never want to play in one of these tournaments again. It was a glorified A / B League tournament. After it was realized you can add anyone you want, it turned into a competition of who knew the better hockey played that had the weekend open.
My recommendation would be to have a D/C League ONLY tournament. Let anyone sign up and pick the teams out of a hat. Similar to the 3on3 tourneys Alien used to run.
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Rank: Administration
Joined: 4/22/2008
Posts: 83
Location: In the crease
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Doc wrote:I know Joe was overwhelmed with all the duties he took on, but what was the reason for the rink owner taking over everything? The league was "taken" from Joe by MISF. Tim wanted to run the league despite everyone wanting Joe to run it. Joe did an amazing job and though the subs may have been a little out of hand last season, I am confident new rules would have been in place this season as long as people spoke up. Joe was willing to make changes to make the league better. He didn't care about money, just having a great league that people enjoyed playing in.
QCI - Goalie #42
Killer Tomatoes - Mid-season Aquisition
Chops League - Skater
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/30/2008
Posts: 6
Location: Des Moines, IA
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Alright, I haven't placed a post out here before, but between the tournament and the league/rink conditions, here are my 2 cents:
From either the "Advanced" and "Rec" perspective from this tournament, we purchased one thing, and were handed something entirely different than what we paid for. The rec teams were under the assumption they would be playing other rec teams, and the same goes for the advanced. However, what we were handed was a mashed together debacle of a tournament. Had there been proper organization and communication from the rink, I think all teams involved would have been happy with the tournament, even with it being "mixed" levels. We wouldn't have had any "ringer" issues, etc. With what the rec level teams were up against, I couldn't blame anyone for then recruiting additional players ("ringers") in order to be able to compete with what they were up against, especially if there wasn't anyone from an organizational standpoint stating that it could or could not be done.
The scheduling also wasn't the greatest either. I would agree that the 11to7 & Alien hockey games on Saturday was a ridiculous deal. I know you can't easily anticipate who will play at what time once in the "seeded" play, but common sense should tell you to put at least an hour break in place after the last game in the first round of play, and the first game in "seeded" play, so in the event that by some fluke that the same 2 teams end up playing each other in the very next game, each team gets some kind of rest.
As far as the league is concerned, I think we may have a few different options, depending on if we as a league are willing to put forth the effort required:
1. The rink's revenue structure is based upon renting ice time. What is stopping us from creating an "ABA Style" league, if we can generate the money to rent out the neccesary ice time? The rink is still getting their money, yet we are at least able to govern ourselves. We set up some kind of "board" (based on team captains maybe?) to discuss things such as rule changes, subbing, etc. We as a league and players determine how we want things to be run. Outside of facility conditions, everything else is within our control. Similar to how it was when Joe ran things. The downside to this, however, is it then requires a larger investment of time by the players themselves.
2. If the rink won't allow option 1, what about some kind of discussions with Wells Fargo/Iowa Chops? (Maybe Joe has some connections with them in his previous dealings with them on this?) I would imagine they have open ice, considering most of their events aren't until the evenings. That probably eliminates the possibility of our Wednesday/Sunday night leagues, but what about like a Saturday afternoon league? Maybe tie it in with the ticket sales for them, etc. Say we pay $300 per person for the league, and we get some kind of discounted tickets to games, etc. I think it would help to boost their attendance, if they could get the 75 - 100 players they might have from an "afternoon" league stick around for that evening's game, plus factoring in that we'd probably all want to bring family, friends, etc to the Chops game, it could potentially surpass 300 - 400 people. It may not be ideal ice time for everyone, but we'd at least have a functional scoreboard, warm/sanitary locker rooms, etc. (And I don't think 10:00 PM games are really that "ideal" for most either?)
3. Does anyone have one or two million dollars laying around they aren't using? We could build a new facility, with fully functional scoreboards, a parking lot that you don't need 4wd to get through, doors that are all unlocked during business hours, etc.
4. Just suck it up and continue to "take it" like we have been, for lack of a better option that we as a league aren't willing to pursue.
We can complain all we want, but it's apparent to me that the only thing that will be heard, is the sound of our dollars being spent elsewhere. Until we can find a way to do that, we're "stuck" where we're at.
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/13/2008
Posts: 53
Location: driving Iowa county roads
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If we were going to run our own league, I would be in if we could go elsewhere, but I definitely wouldn't rent ice from MISF. We would end up having half our games changed or double-scheduled, and the facilities wouldn't be any better, and they'd still have our money. I would only want to have a self-run league if it was elsewhere. Not enough benefit to justify taking on the headaches and work of running it ourselves.
For the fall, they wouldn't have much trouble renting the ice, so we wouldn't really hurt them there if we didn't participate in adult league. The only way to really hurt them is to basically work it like a strike, where the entire hockey community, maybe the figure skaters too, essentially formed a union and boycotted the place. Unless I had a viable alternative, things aren't bad enough for me to give up hockey indefinitely both for myself and my son. Although there have been some rumblings, I don't think DM Youth Hockey is willing to go that far at this time either. My feeling right now is to suck it up for now and hope for a new rink in the next few years.
It's a short time livin' and a long time in the ground.
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 7/29/2008
Posts: 9
Location: WDM, IA
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Hawki87 wrote:I understand the frustration of Coke, but don't be spreading the rumor that B&B took players from another team just to win. I retract my previous statement, as I didn't fully know the situation. Again, yet another indication of the lack of organization/communication. I apologize if I appeared to be calling anyone out from B&B. Kacy, I think you speak for all of us with the options. I wouldn't mind pursuing alternatives to this league, but let's face it, Option #1 will be, and I believe has been (in the past), shut down by MISF. I'm sure they have their reasons for taking over the league, but how is it solely their decision? My guess is that the majority of the folks on this board and in the league would agree that a change is absolutely, without a doubt, needed. I love the sport and honestly enjoy the community. Last season was a blast and I looked forward to our games, but my experience with this tournament has turned off any interest in future MISF-ran tournaments or league play. I think Kacy's second suggestion is key. Coke/YDD's tournament team included the PR guy for the former Iowa Stars and now Iowa Chops. Possibly leveraging his influence, perhaps an ear or two would be caught. Granted, the Arena is a bit on the grandiose side for a simple rec league, but is it really going too far? Especially if we packaged in advertising like ticket discounts, etc. My brother's rec league up in Grand Forks (home of the Fighting Sioux, Jonathan Toews' alma mater) regularly uses the Ralph Engelstad Arena, which blows the WF Arena out of the water in quality. I'd be more than happy to design the web part and help run stats, etc. along with Tony. I know for a fact there are at least 5 other "geeks" in the league that would help with that stuff, and I know there are dozens that would be willing to help out with other aspects (planning, dispute resolution, organization, scheduling, etc.). Doing something like this would definitely shake up MISF and hopefully get them to realize how far the rink has fallen.
#37 Coke/YDD (on hiatus)
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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Hawki87 wrote:You guys make some interesting points, but the B&B team that signed up for the tournament was never meant to be the same B&B team that plays D League. We used the B&B jerseys, but almost all of our players were Hockey dads that play anywhere from A to D league. We had 6 people that play D league including the goalie (who has played for less than 1 year). That's pretty cool to do. It's a nice way to give some players a taste of higher play. Not to mention a good use of sponsorship... Hawki87 wrote:Anyway, the communication from the rink was terrible, since it was never relayed to the teams that the Competetive and Rec divisions had been combined. I am sure that CR and Peoria weren't too happy to be playing against "C" and "D" league teams. All in all it was just typical of the Facility and the way that they are run. What is the point of setting up a tournament with two divisions if you are only going to have one in the end? Especially when the participating teams are not told of the change and not given the chance to back out. I would have been pissed. It shows how much the rink cares about money and not hockey. Hawki87 wrote:I understand the frustration of Coke, but don't be spreading the rumor that B&B took players from another team just to win. Sorry for any role I had in spreading the rumor.
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Bench warmer
Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 63
Location: Middle of Nowhere, IA
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kreeves79 wrote:Alright, I haven't placed a post out here before, but between the tournament and the league/rink conditions, here are my 2 cents:
2. If the rink won't allow option 1, what about some kind of discussions with Wells Fargo/Iowa Chops?
3. Does anyone have one or two million dollars laying around they aren't using? We could build a new facility, with fully functional scoreboards, a parking lot that you don't need 4wd to get through, doors that are all unlocked during business hours, etc.
4. Just suck it up and continue to "take it" like we have been, for lack of a better option that we as a league aren't willing to pursue.
We can complain all we want, but it's apparent to me that the only thing that will be heard, is the sound of our dollars being spent elsewhere. Until we can find a way to do that, we're "stuck" where we're at. I am hoping for option 2. There is also the Bucs' ice to consider. Maybe a combination of the two rinks? I'm game for anything of the sort. If I had it, I would build it. Probably on the south side or eastern burbs. And no figure skating sould be allowed. It would be a proper hockey facility. Maybe a sheet for curling too... Number 4 until we get better organized or some one hits the lottery...
Hockey is love. Lacrosse is passion.
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Rank: Administration
Joined: 4/22/2008
Posts: 83
Location: In the crease
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Yea, I have heard it mentioned before to form a league that playes at either the Buc's Arena or Wells, then uses the other rink when there are events. I think that would be great. I have told Joe from the start that if he needs any help with anything, let me know. Though it was a bit of work, I loved running the stats website last season and would be willing to do more for the league if it meant getting away from MISF.
QCI - Goalie #42
Killer Tomatoes - Mid-season Aquisition
Chops League - Skater
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Rank: Rookie
Joined: 5/21/2008
Posts: 7
Location: Awesome City, USA
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I'm all for a new league in a different arena. Really, other than having 2 refs for each game (trying to say something positive), MISF's takeover of the league has added jack squat. As Kacy mentioned, it's the ice conditions and the management's indifference that have me wanting an alternative. I don't mind having my league fees raised for improvements, but in return they've improved nothing. Worse than that, they've let the overall conditions deteriorate.
Who else felt embarassed by association as the Peoria and CR teams took to "our" ice? I thought for sure they'd order some new bulbs for the clock! A little bit of extra work and maintenance would go a long way in my opinion.
Alien Joe #16 - Giddy Up!
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